Some may say that I am not the best person to comment on the quality of a game like “Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past” but I say nay, I am the perfect person. I write this, fully aware that it will outrage a lot of people. Before you go any further, let me just say: despite my many frustrations during my marathon of Zelda and the stress of trying to finish, I am not going to be negative about this game. In fact, I would say I am ultimately very positive about the experience. However, I feel that there is really something to be said about this game in comparison to the more recent entries in the series.
For years, everyone that I have had a deep conversation with about Zelda has told me that a Link to the Past is the best Zelda ever made. I have seen it grace too many Top 10 lists to count and I honestly can’t understand it. Don’t misunderstand this sentiment, the game does sport some brilliant game design (like every Zelda since then) but to say that since it is one of the first to do so, it is the best is ridiculous. Allow me to make a comparison to illustrate my view point:
- Ocarina of Time is a polished, brilliant experience that is portrayed in full 3D with beautiful visuals, excellent music, and some of the best pacing ever. I look at Ocarina of Time as a big beautiful house. Stick with me here… if Ocarina of Time is a beautiful house, then Link to the Past would most definitely be the final draft of the design doc for said house.
I will hold the majority of my thoughts for the show tonight but I think this analogy summarizes why I feel that 3D zelda’s are more enjoyable (to me) than 2D zeldas. 2D Zelda was a mere blueprint for what Zelda would eventually become before 3D gaming was possible.
-Nick
{ 38 comments… read them below or add one }
Too right about the “because it’s the first, it’s the best.” statement. I go through the same thing with me and people who play Pokemon. They tell me Gold, Silver, and Crystal are the best Pokemon games ever and completely disregard the fact that the same game has been re-released for a better system with better graphics, better sound, more Pokemon, online capabilities, and new additions to the story.
I also feel that for that very reason, Twilight Princess is better than Ocarina of Time. [=
I disagree with you on the pokemon bit. My experience with pokemon was incredible and memorable with my Blue Version, which pre-dated Gold and Silver. And the reason for this was the apparent complexity of an incredibly simple game concept. The reason I so dislike the later releases of pokemon is that they make it waaaaaaaaaaay to ridiculously expansive. I mean, how many fucking pokemon do you need to have fun? The original 150 were more than enough, and now there are over 500!?!? It seems like they just keep milking the series to try and see how many they can create before actually running out of ideas for new pokemon. For that, I’d say that the original is better, because the later versions have the same exact gameplay, but just more complications and excess nothing.
to me, Link to the past still has the best dungeon design to me. its not overly hard but its not easy either. Same with ocarina of time. though i played that game only last year, i still liked the level designs more so then wind waker. it had a challenge to it but not an unforgiving challenge like many others at the time.
I agree that just because it was first doesn’t make it the best but at the same time, there are so many things in link to the past that make it a much more fun experience then any of the other 2D zeldas, though minish cap is pretty good as well.
I may be in the rare minority but it seems I am one of the few people who played Link to the Past as a kid when it released yet still enjoyed Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker overall more as an teenager when I played them. Concerning Zelda titles it seems that the first entry that someone plays is usually the one they remember most fondly, but even with the rose tinted glasses of childhood on LttP’s side I think OoT and WW are the perfect Zelda experiences. Nothing against LttP as it is my favorite super nintendo game, but the sense of exploration in addition to the sheer charm of WW and the downright total package of Ocarina slightly shift the balance for me.
It’s pretty much nostalgia fags who claim the game is still great.
I wouldn’t go that far, I mean that may be part of it but its still a downright great, great game. It holds up absolutely amazing, try to find a few other games from 1993 that hold up so well, I just think personally that (like Nick said) the later entries in the series refined everything so well.
Nick brings up a great point with 2d zeldas being the blueprints for the 3d zeldas.
I think that Link to the Past had a bit more meaty dungeons than Ocarina of Time, but you cant really compare the two in greatness. They were both the pinnacle of Zelda on their platforms. But i think it ultimately boils down to matter of opinion in which Zelda is the “best”. But in conclusion there is something to be said about how great Zelda games really are.
In the far, far future, Ocarina of Time will be harder to go back to than the simple stylings of Link to the Past.
Nick… oh hell why not?
Brad, David, and Travis,
I suggest you guys own a copy of Nintendo Power’s Link to the Past Strategy Guide.
I know, it’s like cheating. But I don’t like the book because of that, it contains concept art of the Link to the Past universe. I enjoyed the background info of each place, the lore behind Kakariko? Town in the Dark World, the dress attire of Hyrulians, and the stories of equipment (like ice rod’s background).
Not to accuse you of anything, but could your opinion have been a little tainted since you had to sit through the entire game at once? Link to the past is a somewhat long game, and having to sit through all of that gets really frustrating at times.
I always felt Link to the Past had more to do in the world that some of the other 3D Zeldas and I still like how different the dungeons are compared to each other. I believe you’re right in your reference that Link to the Past is like a blueprint, where the 3D Zeldas are the actual house. I just feel like the house is still in construction though. There are still some things the 3D zeldas are lacking that the older games had. For example, the item variety.
That being said, I also believe Link to the Past also suffers from the nostalgia syndrome. Link to the Past was great, but I never felt it was as great as everyone seemed to be making it out to be. Well, if you are a die hard Zelda fan, than maybe it should be considered a “must-play”.
Personally, I always liked Links Awakening the best, though that just might be nostalgia and the fact the Shopkeeper could electrocute you to death if you stole from him.
You are not really qualified to commen on the strengths of LTTP, Nick. You rushed through the game, had people telling you where to go and solving puzzles for you, and you never really had a chance to explore the world on your own or get to know it on your own terms.
In other words, you did not have the full experience of the game, only a cursory and superficial appreciation of some of the qualities on a rush-through basis. So I don’t think I’m going to consider your taste to be the most informed when you try to claim OOT is better than LTTP. Other people would be better qualified to make that comparison.
Furthermore Nick, by this same argument of yours (that having more polish, better graphics, better presentation of story and a larger overworld with more complex maneuvers makes the 3D Zeldas better games) you would have to acknowledge the corollary argument: that Twilight Princess is a better game than Ocarina of Time. I don’t think that’s what you’d say. And I can tell you why.
On some level, you too understand that there are things more fundamental to good gameplay than just the surface appeal or the presentation. You cannot seriously make your dismissive and fatuous claim that 2D Zeldas are “a mere blueprint” for 3D Zeldas, unless you also adopt the corollary argument that “OOT is a mere blueprint for Twilight Princess and Wind Waker”. But I will bet you won’t. Because you simply must recognize what everyone else does on some level: being a predecessor game with fewer features than another later game doesn’t make the older one a worse game.
3D Zeldas added some things, but they lost a lot that the best 2D Zeldas had…. for example overworld, exploration, densely populated with secrets etc. If you say the older game is a “mere blueprint” for the “house” that is 3D Zelda, I would extend your analogy and add that the “house” itself was an unfaithful copy in many ways, losing a lot of features that the blueprint promised. If only it had been a blueprint.
Wow. I didn’t comment on the quality of the game overall. In fact, I started by saying that I enjoyed the game and that the situation in which I played the game was taken into consideration.
It is very clear that each style of Zelda has it’s own set of strengths and weaknesses and I don’t necessarily think that one style is better than the other. I would completely agree with you that Twilight Princess is a better game than Ocarina of Time mechanically and structurally however, I still enjoyed Ocarina of Time a bit more.
To touch on your point about the populated world: The sheer amount of content that originated in LTTP that reappears in OoT destroys your attempt to call it an unfaithful copy. The transition from 2D to 3D was incredibly faithful in almost every way. The sheer size of the overworld in 3D Zelda’s makes it impossible to fill it to the brim with secrets to the same degree as LTTP. There is still plenty of secrets and surprises to find in 3D Zelda’s so to make a statement like that seems a bit harsh and fanboyish.
I liked LTTP a lot. I wouldn’t even mind playing it again. However, I still prefer the 3D games for a number of reasons. However, it is still great to see the series roots and I can always appreciate a great blue print because without it, the house that I spoke of wouldn’t exist.
Let me point out that you made a logical non-sequitur when you claimed that the amount of recycled or re-presented content in OOT that derived from LTTP somehow undermines my point about things having been lost in the 3D translation. How so? For while there are indeed some shared legacies, you have just agreed that the two families have different strengths and weaknesses. In other words, 3D was not just a perfection or advancement across the board of all the qualities of 2D games; some crucial elements, as I say, were lost and made worse from the 2D to 3D translation, even as some things were improved.
I’m sure you are not trying to make the logical leap that because OOT retained *some* of the elements from LTTP, it was therefore an entirely faithful translation. And this is why I find your blueprint vs. house analogy flawed. It makes it sound as if the 2D games are not great games with distinct and irreplicable qualities in and of themselves, but that their only role in the history of video games is to be a rough draft of a game that was better built in every dimension (pardon the term).
Your second paragraph is the one that I will support and emphasize to you, and remind you to keep at the forefront of your thoughts on this, before you are tempted to present us again with a dismissive analogy like “the 2D Zeldas are a mere blueprint for 3D Zeldas”. On the contrary, you should abandon this claim and embrace your own acknowledgement that there are different strengths to the 2D and 3D Zeldas. In some ways, 2D is better, in some ways 3D is better. This is a much more sound formulation than your flawed analogy about the house and the blueprint, which makes it sound as if you’re trying to claim that the raison d’etre of all 2D Zeldas was simply to be the pale shadow and underdeveloped ancestor of the 3D games.
You wonder why I zero in on your analogy; it is because I honestly found it to be the most obtuse and misrepresentative part of your original post. Your response since then has sounded much more reasonable and puts some distance from the “graphics whore” implication (which you deny now, fortunately) that 3D Zeldas are superior in every way.
If you are indeed denying that was your implication now, I can cheer this understanding, and would encourage you to stop making posts just to complain that too many people overpraise 2D Zeldas. We in fact have good reason to prefer 2D Zeldas, and to see those games as more than just “blueprints” for another game. On some level, I think you understand that we have reason to prefer their distinct merits too. So to avoid more incendiary misunderstanding, I’d suggest abandoning the house analogy when discussing the same topic in the future. It makes it sound too much like you are saying 3D is better in every way, that 2Ds are mere rough drafts, rather than being strong and substantial games with distinct qualities in and of themselves. And no one ought to use an analogy that makes one’s meaning more, rather than less, unclear.
Zelda is just a boring and uninspiring series, in my opinion. I never understood why so many people like it.
Oh shut up, Nick is allowed to comment on both entries in the series.
You’re just saying that because you have nostalgia for OoT and not ALttP :V
Personally I found Link’s Awakening to be the best, but that’s just me. I haven’t played all the zeldas, but I like link’s awakening for it’s simplicity, even though it’s still quite hard.
Nick,
I understand that OoT is your favorite game of all time, and nothing shorter than a miracle will ever cause this to change. You have played through it countless times, often one right after the other, each time loving it more than the next. I get it. Now, let me tell you why playing through MY favorite game of all time ONCE does not give you the ability (or the right!) to accurately judge Link to the Past.
First, there is nostalgia. You obviously know that nostalgia can have an influence your judgments. However, for some reason, every time you talk about Ocarina of Time, you discount it. LttP never had a chance, because when you first put that OoT cartridge in your N64, you were a wide eyed, young kid with limited gaming experience. The first time you saw Link ride Epona over that hill, you were probably very near to crapping your pants with anticipation. However, now you are a grown man who has probably played hundreds of games. You were pretty much forced into this experience; plus, you had to rush through it. This is not the way that we should play games. Video games should be a treat: something that we do for fun, something that we do properly. Link to the Past never had a chance, because you never gave it a chance.
Now, let’s talk about graphics. These days, graphics often become more important than the story (this part is for you, Mr. Lucas!). People do not realize that when the graphics are outdated in 2 months, there will be nothing left. The story of Beowulf has been around for 1500 years. However, when the movie came out a couple of years ago, all people talked about were the graphics (and Angelina’s boobies). What the crap? Just because something is 3D does not mean it has better graphics than something that is 2D. In fact, circa 1997, it probably meant it was WORSE. We remember games like OoT and FF7 because they stood out from the gimmicky “Hey look we are in 3D!” games that were coming out. And as I always say, “A pile of crap might be better than a pile of shit, but it’s still a pile of crap!” (I, in fact, never say that.) What I am trying to say is to take 3D out of the equation. It shouldn’t (read: doesn’t) matter!
As we all now, the reason we keep coming back to Zelda games is the story. So if we compare the stories of the two games in question. In Link to the Past, you go to three dungeons: fire, water and earth. Then, you use these three items to get the Master sword, which is the only weapon that can defeat Ganon. However, then you get transported to a darker Hyrule, which is ruled by Ganon! You must battle your way through several dungeons in order to save seven people that will help you battle Ganon. An epic battle ensues, but Link emerges victorious, and Hyrule is saved! Yay!
In Ocarina of Time, however, you got to THREE dungeons: fire, water and … wait a minute!
Of course, I am only poking fun here. This is a pretty common theme in Zelda games. The reason I bring it up, is because now you can not fall back on story as the reason you love OoT. Mission Accomplished.
Let me talk just a little bit about your comment. First of all, OoT is NOT polished. It is much harder to go back to than LttP. The visuals are not so much beautiful as hard to watch. However, a few scenes (a vision of Epona jumping over a fence comes to mind) are pretty cool, though a bit blocky. I will say that the music in OoT is great; every now and then, I still get the Epona song stuck in my head. Again, the pacing is pretty much the same as in LttP, but I will say that they are both done well.
There are a lot of good things about Ocarina of Time. In fact, I have to say, I really like OoT. It is definitely in my top 20, and possible in my top 10 games of all time. However, we cannot go any further without mentioning the very thing that impassioned me enough to write this long rebuttal: the house metaphor. This doesn’t make any sense. I have a version that I created that I would like to share. Imagine Ocarina of Time as a big beautiful (well, 3D, at least) house. Now, look at the house next door. It’s a little bit smaller, a little bit older, maybe even a little outdated. But you walk up to the window and look inside. You are moved by what you see in there: pictures of grandchildren on the wall, dogs sleeping on pillows, and people gathering around the kitchen table, just happy to be in each other’s company. THAT is Link to the Past.
Stephen Simons
I love that everyone is running and expanding my house analogy. LOL.
The whole old vs. new fiasco boils down to whether it is best of its time or best overall.
Nick is not letting nostalgia cloud him, he never hints at that if you fanboys would learn to read.
I for one, played the very first LoZ. Link’s Awakening, and LttP before OoT, and I will also say that OoT is the much better game as the developers clearly took into account what they learned in the prior Legend of Zelda’s. Ocarina of Time has a much better and explained story (We even learn a bit about Link this time around
) and the sidequests and secrets were a bit more fun to me.
Like everyone has said, LttP did have better dungeons and much harder bosses (some of them are Bullshit hard) but OoT does a much better job of making you absorb the environment and had much better music. Although some of that music was remixed from LttP, it came out much better. The older LoZ’s are still good games (except for the first one since it’s a pain in the ass) but OoT surpassed and improved on those old mechanics and put them in 3D.
Of course he doesn’t mention nostalgia! The fact is, he can’t help but be affected by it – he was introduced to the game at a young age. I will agree with you on the music part, but improved on the mechanics? No. They just put them into 3D the best way they could at the time. Also, Legend of Zelda is ABOUT dungeons and bosses, and as you said, they were better in LttP.
I will say that I love Link’s Awakening – possibly more than OoT.
Dude, I really enjoyed LTTP. Honestly though, I have debated for years whether I like OoT or Wind Waker more so to say that I will never like a game more than OoT is kind of wrong. Hell, i’m playing Red Dead Redemption right now and that may give OoT a run for it’s money.
Twilight Princess is an amazing game and it is better than OoT in most respects but the only reason I dont say it is my number one game of all time above OoT is that I wasn’t a huge fan of turning into the wolf.
I find it funny that its usually Nick’s blog posts that get all the fanboys mad.
Not to mention, if the Zelda that Nintendo announces in a few weeks is drastically different for a Zelda game, I hope to god that I enjoy it more. If I like that game more than OoT, then I will admit to it and say it is better, end of story.
Holy shit… what if the new Zelda was a 2D (or Isometric) Zelda on the Wii! I would play that! Fuck, I would be ecstatic!
and you know what….
I would expect them to make improvements to the classic formula if the next Zelda was 2D as well.
That would be awesome, and I would be sad because I would be unable to get it.
Also, I just want you to know that I completely respect your love for OoT. I was merely presenting my case that LttP deserves to be in at least your top 20, if not your top 10. I am tellign you this because I want you to know that I am not as much of a butthead as my brother.
I miss Zelda – it has been over a year since I played any of the games.
I don’t really care whether the new Zelda is 2D or 3D. 2D Zelda like LTTP is great just like 3D Zelda like OoT.
If I have to say, I prefer LTTP (played it after OoT on GBA so no nostalgia factor for me). The fact is, OoT is beautiful but some graphics in the game disgust me like the Fountain Fairy (UGLY!). LTTP didn’t have those “flaws”, being 2D but it doesn’t matter.
Story-wise, OoT is better I guess.
Music, both are great.
A little faster gameplay for LTTP maybe.
I’d say LTTP is solid but outdated and OoT is polished yet flawed.
I can understand where you’re coming from Nick. Honestly. ALttP was hard for me to play too. I think it’s because I played Ocarina of Time first, and it was hard to “revert” back to 2D graphics because I wasn’t used to it. Either way, I’m glad it was enjoyable experience for you, hope to hear more about it on the show.
I agree with you about the ugly fairies Omega… they were like hillbilly cross dressers with boobs
All valid points guys
Nick, I think your points are valid. I always wish that you would broadcast more often, but to sit down doing your first broadcast in a while and face a game where: you were under a tight time constraint; you faced your gaming style against many top ten lists; and you had the most frustrating and complicated game. Made me extremely happy for you and I hope your proud of this achievement, and after all the struggle I am glad that you were still able to enjoy this game, so thank you for sticking with it Nick. I hope you will be appearing more regularly on broadcasts. Thanks Nick!
im glad everyone out there isn’t going to look down at a great game for graphics thats one of the reasons i still go back to the classics
hmm you could say that the 2d zelda game is almost like a blueprint for the 3d zelda game… but then again you could also say that the 3d zelda game is an interpretation of the 2d game .. where things may get changed up or warped from the original 2d game. does a 2d game always have to be a blueprint for the 3d game? meh your right though .. in the case of zelda making it into 3d relized the dream the 2d game never got to fufill.
I am an avid listener, donator and overall fan of the 4PP. It is one of my favorite podcasts. I am looking forward to hearing your opinion, Nick.
Unlike certain other listeners who have already ruled out your opinion, I expect you to be more professional than to rag on the games overall design just because you sucked at it. Because, yes, I do think you realized that you certainly weren’t very good at Zelda:ALTTP and it wasn’t so much the games fault.
When an overwhelming majority of the people who played the game didn’t have it ruined to them by the difficulty or game design, then yeah, it’s certainly not the games fault if a few sucked at it.
HEY GUYS, you should probably give Nick the benefit of the doubt. While Nick might suck at certain games, he does recognize and appreciate the games nonetheless. Look at Bayonetta, even though he was awarded Stone Trophy after Stone Trophy for his inadequate performance, it still landed in his Top 20, if not Top 15 GOTY list.
A few day’s before you started your marathon of A Link to the Past,( I think it was the day you talked about what games you planned to do on M-week, It reminded me that I still had a save on the game. I then continued playing the game.
I forgot how hard the game was, and finding enough heart pieces to not die is always a chore. However, It has great level design, Interesting characters, and Cool weapons. So far I’m really enjoying aLttP.
However, Ocarina of Time will always hold a special place in my mind as a epic adventure. Seriously, it had everything.
Exploring dangerous dungeons.
Solving ancient puzzles.
Sword fighting horrible monsters.
Helping the poor townsfolk.
Finding a magic sword.
Riding through vast stretches of land on horseback.
Collecting rare artifacts.
Slaying dragons.
Rescuing a damsel in distress.
I haven’t played Twilight Princess yet, or Wind Waker. Hell I haven’t even played Majora’s Mask yet. So I can’t compare the games.
I just got to say it was great to see you not giving up and instead kept on playing until you finished it, Nick.
Personally I played through A Link to the Past and for the first time (had an NES and then moved to computer gaming back in the days) before Project M and really enjoyed it. I also started playing Ocarina of Time, but never finished it due to the marathon competition starting. I must admit OoT was a bit harder to get into at the start, but I will give it another go one day.